3 - Intro - Module 3 - Beverley - Teleclass - Transcript.pdf - Robbins - Madanes Coach Training - nelbereduardo94

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C: Cloe Madanes

M: Mark Peysha

S: Student

M: Welcome to Robbins Madanes Training. Today is the teleclass on Module 3 and a mega-strategy that we call

Finding the Spark . This is one of the most important mega-strategies that we have. Like expanding the unit and

the elevation strategy, it has to do with bringing more resources into the conversation. In this case it has to do

with bringing the person’s human energies and emotions and identity that is needed in order for them to

accomplish what they need to accomplish. One of the arts of strategic intervention is that you use the resources

that are already available to you and to the person. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you are

working with someone who needs something completely different than they have had before. For instance, you

might be helping a guy who is in a breakup with his girlfriend, and he is a very logical, organized person, and he

may need a different kind of energy in order to make things succeed with his girlfriend, so you need to find

something within him that will appeal and that will bring to the relationship what they need.

The Beverly film and intervention is a great example of Tony finding a part of Beverly and expanding it by

finding a little spark. It is often a little bit of defiance, a little bit of spirit, or a little bit of humor in the person

that you can then encourage and nurture during the conversation. This becomes a major resource where the

person can lock into it and use it. In Beverly it was finding a part of herself that had been repressed and that she

had always made wrong. It seemed during the intervention a lot of the time that her and Tony were just hanging

out, time was just being spent and there wasn’t a lot of progress, but in fact he was enticing and bringing out

this energy in her which they then named Joy and which became the engine of her weight loss.

C: Yes. There were two things that Beverly said that gave crucial information to Tony that he picked on and

based his strategy on. One was she said that as a child she was supposed to be seen but not heard. Beverly had

been very abused as a child. We don’t know the details, we just know that she was abused. When she says she

was supposed to be seen but not heard, she carried this to the extreme. Often people will take one injunction,

one order that they receive in childhood, and take it to a total extreme. So, definitely she could be seen. She was

huge physically and she could not be heard because she was very timid and shy. She really didn’t speak up. She

described her main emotion as being terrified, but being terrified was really just a rationalization for overeating.

She justified her overeating by saying that she was terrified, but the terrified had to do with the idea of not being

heard, also probably because when she talked to adults about the abuse they didn’t believe her. That is my

hypothesis. So, she wasn’t heard.

The second crucial statement Beverly gave Tony to identify what she had to do was that she felt that there was a

little woman inside of her, inside all that fat, so Tony wanted to uncover and discover that little woman inside of

her. Of course there are many different ways of doing this and I’m going to tell you some stories of different

ways to do this, but it reminded me so much of an Ericksonian intervention where Milton Erickson, the famous

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hypnotist we mentioned in the previous class, would say to a woman that was very overweight, “I want to see

the shapely legs that are hiding under all that blubber. I want you to come back in a couple of months or in a

few weeks and show me the legs that I can’t see now but that are there under the fat.” That’s a very interesting

way of conveying the idea in a hypnotic way of loosing the fat because the shapely body then will be

discovered. I just love that.

There are many different ways of finding the person inside. I think that some of you might have seen the short

film on Olivia Garzon who was a woman who had been very mistreated by the husband in a divorce. He took

everything from her and she felt she had lost herself completely. She was deeply depressed, she felt she had

nothing, and Tony just connected her to her ancestry and talked to her about how a Garzon would react in terms

of life’s adversities. As soon as she remembered her family of origin and her last name, her maiden name was

emphasized, she totally put herself together. She said a Garzon would be strong, a Garzon would take it on, and

so on, so that is a different way of doing it.

M: It seems that the predominant strategy for this is seeing if the person either seems stuck in an identity or in

an emotion that is constricting to them, then thinking what is the complementary emotion to this? What is the

emotion behind this? If you have for instance a woman who is very timid, shy, and terrified as in Beverly’s case,

then you are not seeing the whole person there. You need to know that the opposite of that person is inside of

her. So, in fact there was a humorous, ironic, comedian inside of her, and that is just a principle that you need to

go by when you are working with people, especially when they are under stress or in some form of a problem

situation. That is the energy that is going to enable them to break out and go into a completely different pattern.

Often it is actually like a crazy-eight that they internalize. Beverly had trained her ability to have humorous

observations of things and look at things ironically and be self-deprecating and make jokes, but only inside. She

was never able to express it. Maybe sometimes with friends, but not as a habitual thing and certainly not in a

group of people who might be judging her or evaluating her. By Tony just recognizing this little spark inside of

her at some point when he was provoking her or when he was teasing her, he could see that she was responding

to this. You do it again and you acknowledge it when it comes up. So when he says, “Hey, you’re kind of a little

smart-ass, aren’t you?” or, “You’re a little bit of a ham,” he encourages that. Sometimes it comes in the form of

rebellion, the person resisting you. You want to then draw that out and acknowledge it and nurture it.

C: Yes, totally. I want to tell a story about one of my cases that is one of my very favorite ones. It shows a

different way of changing someone’s identity by using the social system that they are embedded in and their

more important relations. The story is a little bit complicated but bare with me because it all will make sense.

One day when I had my institute in Washington D.C., it was a Friday evening and everybody had left. I was the

only one there when I got a call from Children’s Hospital asking me please to accept a referral that is an

emergency. They are sending a mother with two children immediately to my institute. They explain that the

mother came in with a little nine-year-old girl and an older brother who was twelve. The mother was saying that

the little girl was threatening to kill herself and the psychiatric resident that interviewed them felt that the

mother was completely disturbed and in very bad shape herself. He felt that he couldn’t handle this well and

wanted to refer them to us. I said, “OK, I’ll be waiting here,” so they came in.

This was an attractive woman, but she was disheveled. She wasn’t dressed according to what she could look

like. She looked very preoccupied and extremely anxious. The twelve-year-old boy was very quiet and polite

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and the little girl was adorable and seemed a little bit confused as to what was going on. I realized that

everybody was very anxious so I sat with the three of them first and talked about school and their friends and

what was going on. As I began to ask about the situation, the mother began to cry and she said she had to tell me

something but she preferred to tell me alone. I was satisfied that the children had seen that I was a good person,

that I was not going to harm their mother or anything, so at that point I took them to the waiting room to play

and I sat down with the mother. She told me that she was terrified because her ex-husband was a sex offender,

he had gone to jail for sexual crimes against her younger sister, he was coming out of jail and he had called her

and said that he wanted to see the children so she had locked herself in the house.

I talked to her more about her life and the situation with this man and it turned out that practically every man in

her life was violent. Her father had been violent with her mother and she had a brother who was in jail. I asked

her about her current situation and if she had a new relationship with a man. She said no, she lived like a hermit.

She went to work and she was very successful at work, actually, and she supported her children quite well in

quite a difficult job. She was head of customer service at a very huge company so like Beverly she was very

competent in that way, but she was terrified of this man and of men in general. She lived like a recluse and she

told me also that she had been an addict. For most of her life she had been addicted to cocaine. She said that if

she had the chance to use it now she still would use it and she wasn’t buying it now but she would use it and she

had gone to several doctors who had prescribed Valium for her without taking a drug history first. So here is this

very addicted woman taking Valium and driving the children around, a very dangerous situation.

To make a long story short, I said to her, “I’m going to talk first with your daughter Wendy and then I’m going

to give you my professional opinion of your son, also.” I sat down alone with Wendy and talked to her about her

friends, about school, whether she had a best friend, and so on, and then I said to her, “What could your mother

do to be happier? Do you think that your mother is happy enough?” and Wendy was so cute. She said, “No, she

can’t be happy because she never goes out to play. She doesn’t go out with friends. She has a bike and she never

uses it so she never gets any fresh air. She needs to go out and get fresh air,” [laughs] and I said, “Would you

give permission to your mother to go out? Would you stay with your brother as a babysitter from time to time so

your mother can go out?” and she said, “Yes.” I said, “Would you behave really well and not have a tantrum?”

because one of the things she did was she provoked her brother and fought with him and threw things at him,

and she said, “No, I want my mother to go out. I’ll be very, very good.” Then I talked with the brother alone and

he said the same thing. He felt that the mother needed to have a life and he would be happy to take care of his

little sister for the mother to see friends and so on.

I brought the mother, Mary, back in and here is the finding the spark part. I knew that this woman was so down

on herself, her self-esteem was so low because of course she blamed herself for her choice of husband. How

could she not have seen that he was a sexual pervert? How could she not have noticed much sooner that he was

molesting her sister? How could she have been blind to all this? And she felt that always her choice of partner

would be wrong and that she just made the wrong choices. She was totally down on herself so I knew that it

would be very difficult to motivate her to be happier for her own sake, but I could see how she loved her

children and that she would do anything for them, so I said to her, “You know, Wendy can’t be happy because

you’re not happy. She is just like you. She looks like you, she talks like you, and you are showing her how to be

an unhappy, miserable person. Now if you could show her that you are happy, she would be happy too and she

would stop talking about killing herself.” Actually Wendy said that she didn’t remember saying that she was

going to kill herself, but the mother remembered it clearly and made a huge thing about it. I convinced her that

she was going to try to do something different to show Wendy that she could be happy so that Wendy could

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envision a happier life for herself.

I gave her a piece of paper and a pencil and I told her to write down what she was going to do. I told her that on

any given week she had to have three dates with three different men. She said, “What?” and she looked at me as

if I was completely crazy. I said, “Exactly what I said, three different men. It doesn’t matter whether they are

attractive or not, intelligent or not. They could be too fat, too thin, too young, too old, just three men. So tell me,

what men do you know that you could start inviting immediately on dates?” At first she couldn’t remember

anyone, then she remembered two friends, one she had dated and the other was just a friend, then she

remembered a gay friend, and I said, “OK, one can be gay. He’s probably the one that is most fun so that is

fine.” She said, “Yea, he is the one that I have most fun with.” I told her, “This doesn’t mean you have to have

sex with three men, it just means that you have to be involved in arranging three dates. That way you will stop

obsessing so much about your ex-husband and the best protection against a bad man is another man. So, you

will not get too intensely involved with any of these men because whenever you are out with one you are going

to have to be thinking that tomorrow you have to go out with the other one and that will protect you from

getting too intense. You wont tell each one about the presence of the others but inevitably they are going to

suspect or find out and that is a great protection against anyone who is bad, to know that you have a network of

other men that are good.” She looked at me completely incredulously but said, “You know, Cloe, I will try this

because what I’ve been doing now for years is not working and the children are not happy, so I will try what

you say.”

She came back a few days later and it was interesting because she had redone her hair. She had a totally

different hairdo and that is a good sign of change when a person totally changes their style. She was dressed

very nicely and she had met some new men. She had gone to her gym because one of the things that her little

girl Wendy had said was she had to exercise more to be happier and I emphasize that hugely also. So at the gym

she had started a conversation with a man that was a weightlifter, a very muscular man that was lifting weights,

and he invited her on a date so she was happy that she had that one date. Then she went to the hairdresser to

have a haircut and as he was cutting her hair, she noticed he’s a man and she invited him on a date and he

accepted. So she had those two dates and then she went to see another friend.

To make a long story short, she started going on these days and of course she found her spark and these men

were very interested in her but she ended up marrying the hairdresser that was a really good guy and in the

meantime there was no longer a problem with her little girl and no longer a problem with Valium or cocaine or

any addiction of any kind. These men were all very clean cut. Her hairdresser was a big muscular man also and

as soon as the ex-husband saw that she was involved with these men, the ex-husband stayed away. I remember

that I followed this for quite a long time. I was really fond of them. I have the footage and we should make a

film of this because from time to time she would call and say, “I remember that you filmed the sessions. Where

is the film you were going to make? I want to be on a film to train other people. I want to see my film.” [laughs]

She then also blossomed at work and became not only very successful at work but she became a union leader in

her branch of business.

The idea is that both Beverly and this woman had abuse in their background, bad abuse. Mary had not been

abused directly but the abuse of her sister to her was just as bad or worse as if it had been her. Tony with

Beverly found the spark in the sense of humor. I with Mary found the spark in what she was willing to do for

her children, particularly for her little girl.

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M: There is a huge problem that often happens for people when they feel ashamed or guilty for something that

happened in the past. If it was their own abuse or someone else’s abuse, or maybe they were carefree and they

messed up, they stop trusting themselves and start thinking, “No, no, no, I can’t let that happen again. How

could I have let that happen?” and they beat themselves up. Later, several years after this intervention, Tony

started to do some interventions also where he would find when one made a key decision.

What we call a key decision is that some times in your life (and everyone has gone through this in their history)

you are in a dilemma or you are in a position of great stress where you choose one option and not the other. For

instance in Beverly’s case it would be that she was being abused and in order to survive she had to make certain

parts of herself wrong or repress certain behaviors and go with other behaviors, and this was just the survival

instinct of a child. What Tony found and you have found as well in these interventions is that often if you find a

key decision in someone’s life, a turning point, often it is a traumatic moment or a difficult moment and the

person revisits that moment, they will actually find, as in Beverly’s case at the point of being abused, if they

remember the moment exactly before that and they have the emotion that they had before something happened,

like for instance before a car accident you are very happy and carefree and then you have a trauma like that and

you make a new decision, then what you are repressing is the exact emotion that you had before it happened.

Tony did an intervention with a guy who was in the Army where the presenting problem was that everyone felt

distanced from him. His wife felt like she didn’t know him and his children could not understand where he was

coming from. He was one of these very isolated, stony, silent men. People were feeling like it was such a weight

just to be around him and they had so many question marks about what was going on in his head that it was

becoming a huge problem. What Tony did was ask him about some parts of his past, something that was very

scary or something that happened to him, and what in fact had happened was there had been a time that he

almost died. He was in the army on a train going through the center of Africa, an incredibly inhospitable

territory, and he fell off the end of the train and was holding on by like three fingers. He knew in his mind that if

he were to fall off the train, they were not going to stop the train, he was lost, they were just going to go off

without him. It was him, nature, and those three fingers pulling him up. He held on long enough to pull on and

get himself up until he got some help. Tony asked him what was the emotion that he had right before that

moment when he fell off and the man said, “I couldn’t contain my excitement at returning to my family after

being in the Army.”

The emotion he had right before the trauma happened was feeling a connection with his family and feeling

inseparable from his family and his brethren and he realized that when he had fallen and was holding himself,

part of his brain was saying, “Whatever was just happening that made me vulnerable to this terrible thing

happening to me is wrong.” It is a neurological response. Your system basically says, “Whoops, can’t make that

mistake ever, ever again.” The nervous system does this sometimes as a response to shock or trauma. It is

unconscious and it is almost like an automatic thing. This is a good example to keep in mind when you are

trying to find the spark in someone. There are parts of themselves that they have suppressed, that aren’t right

because bad things could happen, so what Tony will often do in many of these if you watch carefully is that he

will provoke the person and look for a little bit of rebellion or resistance in the person and then he will name

that rebellion and resistance the complimentary emotion that he is looking for. In Beverly’s intervention, when

Tony is going a little bit off the chart in terms of his provoking her to be humorous, sly, or naughty, then his

response becomes, “Oh yea, you are a little bit of a rebel. You are a little bit of a wise ass,” and he magnifies

from there.

3 - Intro - Module 3 - Beverley - Teleclass - Transcript.pdf

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